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#1 Tina & Otto

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:34 PM

Time out, positive or negative punishment?

I attended a seminar with Pamela Reid, author of Ex-celerated Learning, a few weeks ago and the subject of time outs was raised.

I only have verbatim notes (my own)....

Fundamentally, a time out should occurr immeadiately following the incident. The dog should be in time out for no more than 30 seconds and then immeadiately reintroduced to the same enviroment wherein the incident occurred.

Please remember this and utilise this information in your own training regiemes.

Tina

Edited by Tina & Otto, 09 October 2005 - 04:37 PM.


#2 Jimmy James

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:04 PM

Hmmmm. It takes me more than 30 seconds to even get Marley to his time out room. Does that matter?

#3 kate valentine

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:10 PM

And I'm usually flabbergasted by their sheer cheek for at least that long before I even get my breath back to react laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

#4 Jimmy James

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:17 PM

laugh.gif laugh.gif Too true!!!

#5 karen@b&q

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:21 PM

Can I ask why 30 seconds?...what does the dog learn in that time?and how do you re introduce them to the same enviroment?...in cases of mass destruction, would you wait until after youve cleaned up? ohmy.gif

#6 kate valentine

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:23 PM

Wow, clean up dane mess in less than 30 seconds??????? blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

#7 karen@b&q

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:26 PM

Ermmmm laugh.gif well..... laugh.gif thats the point....I have banished mine till after ive cleaned up.....and calmed down... laugh.gif laugh.gif

#8 Guest_Khan_*

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 06:25 PM

I think you are missing the point here - its like getting up in the morning, finding your dog has pooped on the floor then telling it off - it is not a constructive exercise as you did not catch the dog in the act so therefore it doesnt know what it has done wrong.

Therefore if you have caught your dog in the act of being destructive you give it time out and then bring the dog back into the room - you will see from the dogs behaviour and body language whilst you are tidying up that it knows it has done wrong.

THAT people is how you show your dog that their behaviour has been unacceptable

mellow.gif

#9 karen@b&q

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 06:53 PM

But when they did poop....they used to leg it, cos they KNEW what they had done...thus there was no point in even going there.... laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
they have NEVER wanted to share the same space as me after a mass destruction laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

#10 Tina & Otto

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:08 AM

Hmmmm. It takes me more than 30 seconds to even get Marley to his time out room. Does that matter?
Jimmy,
No! The important thing is the exclusion. Although speed is of the essence.....

Can I ask why 30 seconds?...
Karen,
There has been lots of behavioural research done which indicates that 15-30 secs is the optimum time for a time out....

what does the dog learn in that time?
S/he learns that when the unwanted behaviour occurrs, there is an immeadiate consequence which is unpleasant for the dog i.e., the removal from the situation

and how do you re introduce them to the same enviroment?...
Simply by allowing them to return to the enviroment they were removed from!

in cases of mass destruction, would you wait until after youve cleaned up?
As Lisa correctly says it depends on whether you have the caught canids in the act of wanton destruction! If you didn't, its too late and I put mine in a down stay and they have to watch the clearing operation.
However, I am currently teaching my own canids to put things away biggrin.gif

But when they did poop....they used to leg it, cos they KNEW what they had done...
Sorry to say this but canines don't really care about defacating in the house biggrin.gif Their attitude appears to be "better out than in!"
They do care about your reaction, that is what they respond to and why they run away biggrin.gif .

Hope that clarifies the points raised.

Tina

#11 Sheilzeus

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:22 PM

Hi Tina,

I have been doing similar with my 12 week old pup, i.e taking him away from the situation, but i was leaving him longer, he responded quite well but I will start doing the same but taking him away for only 30 seconds,

Thank you for that useful information smile.gif biggrin.gif



#12 Guest_Sandy & Cash_*

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 02:33 AM

QUOTE(karen@b&q @ Oct 9 2005, 05:26 PM)
Ermmmm laugh.gif well..... laugh.gif thats the point....I have banished mine till after ive cleaned up.....and calmed down... laugh.gif  laugh.gif

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I have to agree... I've owned dogs all my life and time out in my books is until I say you can come back and it usually takes me longer than 30 seconds to cool off.
Time out place has always been where I can see the dog at all times and believe me they know they've done wrong until I say to them it's okay.
Sandy Cash & Quincy

#13 sueb

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 01:15 PM

Oh...Tina.....loved the questions and answers............ biggrin.gif What a sense of humour - lovely wink.gif

#14 danesrdevine

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:11 PM

Interesting food for thought. some say that you should never let your dog see you clean up its messes. and some say that your body langauge while cleaning up in front of the dog should show the dog... "not on the persian rug in the living room" rolleyes.gif its hard to keep up !!!
interesting 30 second rule. I must remember that!
cheers for the usefull info! wink.gif


#15 paddysmum

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:14 AM

length of time out depends on the situation they were given time out for...but basically until you decide the dog comes back.....if it takes five minutes fine......if it takes an hour to clean up your destroyed sofa an hour it is! Also time out isnt just for the dog ....if you feel you are losing it time out gives you a chance to calm yourself down re access the situation and deal with it rather than act on your initial reaction to some situations such as anger.
This 30 second limit thats been invented is unrealistic and not really workable most people take that long just to get their head around the situation and i for one wouldnt be standing counting 30 seconds ...they get out when im ready.

#16 lillysnow

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:35 PM

Hi

So can you tell me if time out works for all bad behaviour and at what age can this start?
I am having a bit of a problem with Lilly. She just will not take no for an answer. She is not allowed on the sofa but she is a determined little monkey. She goes to the other side of the room and then comes back charging towards the sofa to try and jump up on to it. As she is only 10 weeks she doesn't quite have the coordination to make it up every time. I raise my voice, tell her no and block her way. This just makes her more determined, she actually barks right back at me and also puppy bites my hands in frustration.
Also if we are eating at the table she barks and jumps up trying to get to the food. On occasions when we eat on the sofa she will do the whole charging at us routine again. I think this is because she and her mum and sisters ate out of the same bowl so she thinks it is her god given right to do the same with us. We don't give into her but I do end up raising my voice at her. She isn't in the slightest bit bothered by that but I don't want to keep telling her off and I don't want it all to become a habit. I keep reading that you should ignore un-wanted behaviour but it's very hard to ignore a dog that is throwing herself at you with all her force. When she is like this she reminds me of that dog that was given drugs in the movie Something about Mary Lol :-)

Also can someone tell me how to get those emoticons. I try to add them but just get symbols instead.

Thanks
Beverley and her now sleeping butter wouldn't melt beauty, Lilly.

#17 Julieta

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:59 AM

Hello Beverley,

First, I am no expert, so please take my advice "with a bit of salt" and if someone has better advice please feel free to correct or add.

As for age to start, I would say as soon as possible, although you will need patience and perseverance since change will not come too fast.

As for correcting her behaviour I would suggest blocking her access to the sofa/your food by putting your arm or leg or whatever in the way, but otherwise ignoring her.
I say this for 2 reasons, she may be barking in response to your shouting and she may think it is a game and is "shouting" back, and she may be insisting to get what she wants and by being ignored she will become bored and stop the "game".

Also, at 10 weeks I guess she is still learning her place in your house and needs to understand what she can and can not do. I suggest you have rules and keep them clear, simple and consistent, for ex: if you don't want her in the sofa, never let her on the sofa because it will be easier to understand than being allowed there some times and not allowed other times.
P.S.: Do as I say and not as I do. - Julieta is allowed on the sofa and "some times" even on our bed.

As for the emoticons, it is normal to only get symbols while you are editing the message. The emoticon will apear when you post. :) ;)

#18 lillysnow

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 11:15 AM

Hi Julieta

Thank you for your reply. I believe you are right about her shouting back, I have been saying that she is telling me off right back, hubby thinks I'm crazy but I'm sure she is shouting back. We never let her on the sofa but if you turn your back for 5 mins she is on it. She refuses to get in her basket at all, she just wants the sofa. I wouldn't mind if she were allowed up but my husband refuses. He says that it may make her think she is equal and she may become dominant. Our last dog was allowed on the sofa in the back room for a cuddle with me and I wouldn't mind her doing the same. We have not tried this yet as we don't want to confuse her. I have spent a fortune on beds, she has 4, all big fat and cosy. She could take her pick but it's the sofa or the floor for her!
I do block her way with my arms and legs but she just bites me. My arms look like I have been dragged through a hedge full of thorns. I sit on the floor with her to give her some attention, cuddles and play but she cannot have a cuddle without chewing on me.

As for time out, should I remove her from the room for a couple of minutes or just move her away from me? I haven't put her in her pen when she is bad as the book I am trying to read, (I say trying as I can barely keep my eyes open due to getting up through the night for toilet training) says not to use the pen as a punishment zone as she has to be happy with her sleep area.

I have also posted on another topic re nipping as I am worried that she may be aggressive. Maybe this is just normal great dane puppy behaviour and hopefully she will calm down.

I have also learnt trough her vocally telling me off that Great Danes really do sound like Scooby Doo :D
Thanks again x

#19 Julieta

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 02:00 PM

Hello again,

Is it possible to move away from her so that she does not have access to you? probably the time-out mentioned in the previous posts. Not necessarily in her pen as you say. (I agree with not using the pen as a punishment zone).
If you are able to do the time-out from you be carefull where she has access because we have learnt she will find something else to do to call your attention (chewing the first ching she can find or making a noise) if it works in getting your attention she will learn to find things to destroy.... ;)

I know what you mean about your arms. I have tougher skin than my wife so it didn't mark me as much, but I used to have people looking "funny" at me when I was with my wife thinking she suffered domestic abuse... :unsure:
I would advise you to show her she is hurting and she will learn to moderate the bite force or not bite at all.
Julieta still likes to mouth my wife's arms (with moderated force) when she arives home, but she knows she is not allowed to do it to me.

Don't worry too much about the nipping, it is normal Great Dane (probably every dog) behaviour and not necessarily agressiveness.

We did decide that since we were going to have a dog with more than 50Kg it was important to have some obedience training with a good teacher.

#20 lillysnow

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:57 PM

Hi

Sorry for calling you Julieta, I didn't realise that this was the dogs name or that you were a guy :lol:

I'm not too worried about the nipping as I know that this is something that all puppies do. What I meant was that she seems to be aggressive with it, not your usual puppy playing, more like trying to take charge. I am an experienced dog owner and have had Boxers for about 26 years. They all nipped but if you told them off or yelped to let them know it hurts then they would stop, and they can be really crazy and boisterous. Lilly seems to gain more confidence when she hurts me. It's like she feels like she is winning so gives it her all. That said, she has been much better this afternoon. She has been a lot calmer but then she has had a good run around in the garden. She hasn't had her second vaccinations yet so I have been confining her to the patio which has been repeatedly washed with Jeyes in case of foxes or cats passing through. However she no longer listens and charges for the hedges. She loves to explore and it lets her burn off some energy. She is a fearless little girl. She is like the little girl with the little curl :rolleyes: I do love her to bits though!